Eve Online Naglfar

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  • This entry was posted in entertainment, EVE Online and tagged Gevlon, Naglfar, Skill Points on January 10, 2014 by Wilhelm Arcturus. Dreadnought of Choice – A Real Nail Biter. Back in August, as the war in Fountain and Delve was winding down, the Alliance update at the time was pushing us to get into dreadnoughts.
  • If you have no idea what Eve Online is, It’s a Massively Multiplayer game, set in the far future, where you play a Starship pilot, who is immortal, being copied into a new body, every time they die. Kill your enemies. Gather resources. Play the market. With 500,000 other accounts, all in the same game universe.
Eve online naglfar fitSpoiler
FC: Danny Algaert
2IC: Sekoton
3IC: BedDaBaws
Scout: Vorkan Disha
A lot of pilots in AAFs whose names I did not record.
Doctrine: AAFs
Comp:
1 Sabre
1 Heretic
5 Deacons
~25 AAF DD
2 stealth bombers
Losses: https://zkillboard.com/br/121856/
Vorkan got eyes on a Nagalfar in 2W2, a C6. We went through the usual 'is this POS trash'. I had only been awake a short time, still finishing my second coffee as the Nag was called, this coffee would later turn out to be significant. Both 1W1 and 2W2 were frig holes. As no better FC had spoken up I called AAFs. I do not have a good mental feel for what caps can do, never having flown one and only having ganked a few. When someone else is FCing I would normally play around in pyfa to get a feel for whether or not we have the numbers to actually break it's tank but I got focussed on FCing and instead just made sure we had more DPS than a C6 wave 1 + Avengers deals, assuming it can comfortably tank that. Knowing from experience that high-class dread will almost always have smart bombs fit, and having watched our bubble get smartbombed off on on this kill I was mindful of the fact we'd need to be outside of 7.5km and so would either be in conflag falloff, or have to use scorch, depending on pilot SP. I asked for 4 Deacons, which I hoped would be enough to keep us alive through drifter aggro, and 2 dictors, a hyperspatial sabre and a heretic, the idea being sabre would get on grid first and bubble, in case of poor timing with site finishing/siege ending, and the heretic is easy for logi to keep alive. I called for Retributions and Confessors over other DD due to the need to be outside of 7.5km and we did end up with most of the fleet in those.
Nag finished it's first site and activated drifter while still forming and went on to start a Core Bastion. Due to the prevalence of webs in wave 1, 3, 4 I did not want to engage during the waves of the site. The plan was to wait for the Nag to be on the drifter. I had voiced this to fleet however scout was occupied with scouting so should have explicitly asked if other stuff still alive. Scout called that the dread was on drifter, so we undocked and moved up. I believe these webs to be the cause of the Hecate and Nemesis loss.
We held on 1W1 initally, just in case the Nag pilot had an alt in 1W1 watching the frighole and then moved up. As soon as we had jumped in 2W2 I had dictors warp, and shortly after warped the rest of the fleet in at 10km. This avoid the initial scramble to get outside of smartbomb range, inevitable barrage of broadcasts and loss of those taking actual site/enemy aggro on warping that many people to 0 on smartbombs.

Eve Online How Naglfar


Eve Online NaglfarEve killmark locationsWe were initially optimistic, the Nag had armour damage when we arrived. There was a mobile depot out upon landing, I should have asked about this before warping fleet in as preventing a dread from ever having an anchored mobile depot is ideal. We instead reffed it immediately upon landing. We were able to get it quite deep into shields before it was able to rep back up to nearly full. We keep plinking away at it, trying to get a feel for how comfortably it was tanking us and for how long it could do so. The fact the dreads regular cargohold could hold very little 'stront' (strontium clathrates, the resource consumed by the dreads siege module) was raised, and although we could not break through it's tank, this only meant the original plan of 'shoot at it' had to be changed to 'shoot at it, lots', nothing we can't handle. We continued to shoot at it, at some point pinging uni-wide for assistance. The amount of time the Nag had already spent sieged left questions in my mind over the assumptions we had made about how much stront it could hold. However I did not dwell on this as I then got caught up helping to sort out access lists, shared folders and bookmark sharing. I had delegated this but some trouble was encountered. We contracted Jynn a ship scanner to fit in place of tackle when he was reshipping and noted that the Nag was nearly on full cap, despite fully tanking us. I had been curious as to it's cap level as many PvE dreads I have seen die were not cap stable. Jynn also begun piecing together it's fit which proved helpful both at the time and to allow us to analyze after the fight.
The fit was something like this,Spoiler
[Naglfar, Naglfar we did not kill]
Capacitor Flux Coil II
Capacitor Flux Coil II
Capacitor Flux Coil II
Capacitor Flux Coil II
Capacitor Flux Coil II
Capacitor Flux Coil II
Capital Cap Battery II
Capital Cap Battery II
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II
CONCORD Capital Shield Booster
Pithum C-Type Multispectrum Shield Hardener
Siege Module II
Hexa 2500mm Repeating Cannon II
Hexa 2500mm Repeating Cannon II
Hexa 2500mm Repeating Cannon II
Imperial Navy Large EMP Smartbomb
Capital Core Defense Capacitor Safeguard I
Capital Core Defense Capacitor Safeguard I
Capital Projectile Burst Aerator II
which explained it being at 90% cap despite running it's shield booster. We later had someone's alt bring a cargo scanner, now this would have been immediately obvious to anyone who deals with caps a lot, and I am very familiar with the idea of DSTs or hoarders in SMB, but in the moment it had escaped me. Upon seeing the Occator in the cargo it become clear, even to the most distracted of FCs, that it was not running out of stront any time soon. We had talked about bringing Cruors or FVBs, ordinarily I would have pyfad this with someone else FCing. I felt a bit too overwhelmed with everything else to spend too long looking at pyfa. I ought to have delegated this, in hindsight a dozen or so cruors would have been a lot more useful than sitting there plinking at it's shields for as long as we did. While I have seen first-hand how well FVBs do against caps we did not have anyone experienced with launching FVBs and I wasn't sure how many we would need to land at once to volley it's cap, we would still have needed cruors for this to keep it capped out as its cap regen. What I instead opted to do was have a fleet member who has worked with Bombers Bar before to ping BB for help. This had been suggested early on but at the time I was mistaken about ability to kill it and had thought just waiting for those who were heading to WHC to help to arrive would allow Eve Uni to have the kill to itself. I decided to reuse the shared folder we had linked to unistas making their way in to help. As the entire WHC chain had been copied over to the shared folder and I did not want this being shared to the BB fleet I wiped all the bookmarks in the folder, ready for someone to copy over only the pertinent ones. I had forgotten unistas were still actively these to get in. Unlike BB, uni members cared about kspace entrances close to campuses and my deletion of these caused some of those joining to require fleet warps. We need to be more mindful of actually helping people we ping for ping to get in and help us, but at the time I was overwhelmed with the amount of stuff going on. A separate shared folder for BB would have been the better option here. With BB on the way, ACLs and shared folders being sorted out now seemed the appropriate time to deal with the coffee that had been working it's way through my body. I asked 2IC to take the reigns for a moment and excused myself. I came back to the fleet scattering and about SYNDE Cerbs on grid. As the fleet was half off by this point I took back command but did not call for a stop to the scatter. We bounced and very shortly after, while regrouping, our dictors last bubble ran out and the dread warped off to a hole. We followed, however there was a Tempest, which we had seen briefly on D earlier, on the hole and it was already shrink. This meant anyone jumping in would be rolled in. The dread did not immediately close the hole so I called for us to shoot the dread. This gave the fleet purpose while I considered our options. Shortly after the hostile dictor, which I had not yet been aware of, and the Cerbs landed. I called for fleet to align sun, with the hopes of warping our fleet to the planet this also put us into alignment with. I did not intend to fight Cerbs at range. Some fleet members, either not in the right squad or set exempt from fleet warp assumed the warp I had given the fleet was to the sun. That was a reasonable but unfortunate assumption on their part, however it likely lent credibility to the idea that the whole of our fleet had warped sun. Had the enemy sabre followed our align and warped to the planet at the same time as us we would have been stuck in the middle of a bubble had we selected the same range. The Cerbs and sabre warped sun, and we took a few losses unfortunately. With the enemy sabre at sun I warped fleet to *. We held on * while figuring out if there was any member of the fleet who was somewhere else than * that was not currently dying. The idea was we could quickly kill their single sabre if landed, but once we left it would be easy for them to bubble our way out for anyone stuck in system. Fleet returned home, we conducted an internal debrief, and looking for some clarification on SYNDEs relation to the dread pilot Rogue reached out to their CEO who had been present. What we got instead was a great secondary debrief with Cyrus Kurush in public mumble where we talked over different ways we could have approached the gank.
A few things I can't remember the order of or didn't fit well into the above:

Eve Online Ships


The nag pilot asked in local for FC. I asked 2IC to speak to him to avoid giving free intel. A ransom of a few billion was offered. The offer was not considered because killing a nag, or at least trying, is a lot more fun than some isk. Even if we had been inclined to accept I recall ransoms at some point being explicitly disallowed by uni rules. While I coild not recently find that, I was unsure. This was given to the nag pilot as our reason for declining the ransom as it eliminated the possibility of further negotiation.
I called for extra ammo but then called for undock about 1 minute afterwards as a broadsword has landed on grid. The broadsword was with the Nag and didn't pose any risk of spooking it. I should have redocked fleet to ensure we all had enough ammo.
FVB runs were suggested. I should have just tried this.
Cruors were suggested, we would have needed about a dozen to break through his recharge but we had enough pilots to allow this.
It is unclear if the nag pilot refit to full cap regen as soon as sabre popped on d. A mobile depot was already out which we reffed on landing. It is possible that depot was scooped and relaunched during the engagement. I had a lot of windows open doing fleet 'administrative' stuff and may have missed it, but the fact I am unsure means greater focus is needed in future.
Wrecks were left on field. I saw these when I went back to the site to check if reffed depot was out still, and if so its timer. I announced this but am not aware of anyone going to loot. I took the small amount I could carry and need to remember to return it to its owners.
The 4 different privilege levels on a BM folder and then 3 different privilege levels on an ACL has caused some people confusion in the past. I delegated the task of copying bookmarks. I opted to use a folder I already had which only needed eve uni added to 1 ACL to sort out all access, and then only needed 1 BB character granted manage of that same ACL to sort out all BB access, however I still spent a lot more time than I would like to while FCing focussed on bookmark admin than actually FCing. Sorry to everyone who had difficulties entering to assist us. I had expected it was all being sorted out via fleet chat but did not actually check.
The dread was spotted in a fresh system. We brought the fleet in, establishing tackle. In hindsight to keep the dread in place we needed dictors and deacons. Had I know how far from breaking the nag we were I should have had more scouting. Since we weren't breaking it's tank we didn't need all those DD on grid the whole time. This would have allowed us to know who/what were connected to, defensively, for assistance, and for other routes in for both WHC and anyone assisting. The connection SYNDE used was near to Jita, and if memory serves eggs too was close.
Combat comms were poor. This is not a new problem but I felt it especially hard today. Most of what was said could have been handled via fleet chat. I should have given myself priority speaker. It is something I often do for other FCs but it slipped my mind in the moment. However priority speaker is a band-aid solution to the fact people are keying up so say unimportant stuff. A fleet is not a committee. I am aware I am guilty of this too. Combat comms were called for. Repeatedly. Combat comms were not adhered to. The amount of irrelevant stuff in comms today was overwhelming. It gets exhausting asking for combat comms and then 30 seconds later someone keys up to tell the whole fleet they died or they ran out of ammo or whatever. I made some poor decisions under pressure today. I am not a great FC and it make my job so much harder when I am being overloaded with information I don't care about while trying to make decisions. There times I/scouts/2IC/someone-with-a-task hard to repeatedly check check check just to communicate with each other. Don't be that person making it harder to FC. I appreciate that banter is fun. Combat is not the time for it. I have a lot to reflect on after this fleet. Please equally reflect on whether or not you need to key up.

Dreadnoughts ('dreads') are DPS machines, only surpassed as damage-dealers by Supercarriers and Titans. Only dreads can fit a siege module. Each empire faction has one dreadnought hull:

  • Revelation
  • Phoenix
  • Moros
  • Naglfar

Following the general theme of the factions the Revelation and Phoenix have a bonus resists. The Moros and Naglfar on the other hand have a bonus to repairs. All of them have a bonus to their intented weapon system.Besides above hulls the following non-empire faction hulls exist:

  • Vehement
  • Chemosh
  • Caiman
  • Zirnitra

The blueprint copy for the Vehement can be bought with Serpentis LP. The blueprint copies for the Chemosh and Caiman can drop from the Sotiyos of the corresponding faction. The blueprint copies for the Zirnitra can drop by siding with the Triglavians in Flashpoint sites in Invaded systems. These acquisition difficulties make these dreadnoughts very rare and expensive. As dreadnoughts cannot receive remote repairs while in siege, faction dreadnoughts generally only have very niche uses besides being collector items.

  • 2Dreadnought Tactics

Eve Online Naglfar Skill Plan

The Siege Module

The single most significant and important module on any dreadnought is the Siege Module. The siege module exists in a T1 and T2 variant and has the following effects when activated:

  • +700% turret damage (Tech II: +840%)
  • +165% missile damage (Tech II: +200%)
  • -80% cycle time to XL Cruise and Torpedo Launchers
  • +150% Torpedo velocity bonus
  • 60% Remote Sensor Dampener resistance (Tech II: 70%)
  • 80% remote assistance impedance (remote Sensor and Tracking boosters)
  • 60% Weapon Disruption resistance (Tech II: 70%)
  • Immunity to ECM
  • +100% shield booster/armor repairer amount
  • -50% shield booster/armor repairer duration
  • 10x ship mass
  • -100% maximum velocity
  • Cannot receive remote repairs or capacitor transmission

The siege module converts the dreadnought from a mobile ship into a massive stationary weapons platform. The siege module's cycle time is 5 minutes, and it consumes 250 - (level of Tactical Weapon Reconfiguration * 25) Strontium Clathrates ('stront') to activate or reactivate. In general, dreadnoughts cannot meaningfully engage in combat without siege active. While in siege, the dreadnought cannot warp, jump, voluntarily move in any way, or receive remote repairs from allies, but in exchange receives near immunity to electronic warfare, enormous bonuses to local repairs, and a staggering bonus to weapons damage. (And while the dreadnought cannot voluntarily move while in siege, if the dreadnought was moving when it entered siege, or is bumped while in siege, it will move uncontrollably in a straight line and slowly decelerate due to its extreme mass.) Activating a siege module does not give the ship a Weapons Timer, meaning that a dreadnought can still refit itself at a Mobile Depot while in siege.

A long, long time ago..

In the April 2019 patch the base damage of High-Angle Weapon turrets was reduced, and the Siege Module was given a bonus specifically to them. See https://www.eveonline.com/article/pphodr/patch-notes-for-april-2019-release and https://www.eveonline.com/article/pobbb9/spring-balance-update-incoming . The intent was to maintain the same overall DPS for dreadnoughts, while reducing the damage of high-angle Titans.

On 27 February 2020, the damage changes to High-Angle Weapons and the Siege Module were reverted, and high-angle weapons were in stead restricted to only be usable by dreadnoughts. There was no dev blog article associated with this change.

This section aims to explain some usages of dreadnoughts. It doesn’t aim to be exhaustive and couldn’t be as people always find new applications and some niche cases are not interesting enough. While dreadnoughts are used in PvE (especially in high class wormhole space), it shall not be discussed here.

Besides the siege module the use of dreads is heavily defined by their weapon systems. For each empire faction dread three different types of turrets/missile launcher exist. Short-range, long-range and high angle weapons (HAW). The short and long-range weapon’s application is so low that they cannot efficiently deal damage to sub capital ships. HAWs on the other hand have much better application which is nearly or as good as their battleship counterparts.

HAW Dreads

HAW dreads are used to fight sub capitals. You usually fit a local tank to HAW dreads. Such a local tank can typically tank around 10k EHP/s but can go up to as much as 30k EHP/s. Of course, the exact amount varies with the fit. Armor dreadnoughts (Revelation and Moros) must mostly choose between DPS and tank. Shield dreadnoughts (Phoenix and Naglfar) must mostly choose between tank, tackle (warp disruptor) and application (web, grappler, target painter). The typical DPS of a HAW dread is between 2k and 3k with short range ammunition but can exceed that.

The usage of HAW dreads is widely varied. From changing a sub capital fight over QRFs in your own space to even solo roaming. Thus, the exact fits vary a lot, too.

Eve

The easiest way to kill HAW dreads are other capitals as it’s not especially difficult to apply more DPS than a dread can repair with a few capitals (exact number depends of course on the capitals and the dread’s fit). Even a medium sized sub capital fleet often has trouble to break the tank of a dread. At the same time, it is a challenge to tank the DPS of a HAW dread in sub capitals especially if it’s more than one. EWAR options are limited through the bonuses of the siege module as it makes a dread immune to ECM and gives resists towards damps and tracking disruption. The usually way to go is to apply energy neutralization which makes the dread tank less.

Anti capital dreads and dread bombs

Anti-capital dreads are usually buffer fitted. The idea is to either end siege and extract before you die or to buy other ships time to kill things. For that you usually fit an Emergency Hull Energizer which increases the hull resist a lot for 16.5 seconds. Thus, buying valuable extra time.

Every big nullsec alliance usually has recommended fits for this case and might require people to use a certain hull. Even if you are not in such an alliance, you can easily find out those fits if you search for dread losses on zkill.

Eve

The guns are usually short range to achieve high DPS which is usually at about 10k per dread. Revelations are popular as they can easily switch ammunition and the Scorch ammunition makes it possible to deal high damage even at big ranges. But Revelations are locked into EM/thermal damage. Naglfars can chose their damage but have a bit less tank than Revelations. Moros have the highest damage on paper, but their range is short in comparison with the others.Anti capital dreads can be used in various contexts. From a drop on a single carrier with only a single or few dreads. Over a drop on a FAX supporting a subcap fleet. To big dread bomb to kill super carriers or titans.

Dreadbombs historically have not traded favorably against supercapital fleets with the critical mass to be effective.[1] This means that dreadbombs are deployed either against a single vulnerable target in the hope to extract before help arrives (or dropping enough dreads to kill the target before rescue but not enough to exceed the target's value) or when a super fight is already in progress. This probably also triggered the changes to remote reps[2] and the limitation to FAX cap boosters which reduced the overall repair amount especially for FAXs in big fleets. In the super fights since then, such as M2-XFE, dreadnoughts have not traded well with critical mass titan fleets. In the M2-XFE armor timer, a TEST dreadbomb got destroyed by lance doomsdays from some of the Imperium's titans. In the rescue/extraction fight, a large PAPI dreadbomb was enough to distract the Imperium's titans and cover the extraction of most of the PAPI titans. However, this dreadbomb did not trade effectively against the Imperium. While it accomplished the objective and brought a win for the PAPI side, the cost was several hundred dreadnoughts against six Imperium titans.

Structure Bashing

Filezilla in xampp. The high DPS of a dreadnought means that for structures that do not have a damage cap (i.e. not the newer Upwell structures), it can be worth dropping enough dreadnoughts to take down the structure in a single siege cycle. However, this means that the dreadnoughts' owners need to be sure that they can defend the dreadnoughts against a counter drop.

For structures with damage caps, dreadnoughts are a bad idea. They will be stuck for long enough that a response fleet with tackle can easily reach the structure and the siege module immobilizes them so that they cannot get away from the response fleet. Carriers are much better for this purpose for other reasons too: they do not require ammunition or strontium clathrates to be effective and they engage from beyond the range of the structure's anti-capital weapons.

Vindicator-supported Capgun Dreads

This is a rare but deadly strategy used in Class 5 and Class 6 Wormhole engagements. In most cases, this is done using two Naglfars fitted with anti-capital Hexa-2500mm Repeating Cannons, and one Apostle (or other Force Auxiliary), supported by one or more Vindicators, Lokis, and Huginns. The objective of this composition is to use the Vindicator's webs to completely immobilize enemy cruisers and battleships, then target paint them with the Huginn and quickly eliminate them with the anti-capital weapons of the Naglfars (which, while they ordinarily cannot hit subcapitals, have little trouble hitting stationary targets). The Loki and Huginn together are able to apply webs to enemies outside of Vindicator range, and the Force Auxiliary is in charge of keeping the support ships alive under enemy fire. Variations of this strategy are employed both by independent roamers, and by high-class Wormhole groups in major engagements with one another.

References

  1. ^See Jin'talks - Why Dreadbombs Don't Work (against Superfleets).
  2. ^see https://www.eveonline.com/article/pobbb9/spring-balance-update-incoming

See Also

Eve Online Naglfar Fit

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